Preorder Big E’s new book “How I Got Over” at https://howigotover.com

Ettore Ewen (@WWEBigE) is a former WWE Champion and panelist best known as Big E. He sits down with Chris Van Vliet in Oakland, CA to discuss his upcoming memoir titled How I Got Over, why now was the right time to write the book, overcoming many physical and mental struggles over the course of his career, winning Money in the Bank and then the WWE Championship, his career-ending injury that occurred during a match on SmackDown, being kicked out of The New Day and the follow-up, KofiMania, original plans for The New Day, Kofi Kingston and Xavier Woods leaving WWE, and more!

You are so open with your experiences in this book. It’s raw what you speak about. Were there certain topics that were difficult for you to write about?

“I think they would have been difficult if I started writing the book a few years ago, but not really. I’ve really been excited about this. Sterling K. Brown talks about being naked with your clothes on. That idea of being so transparent and open and honest, and honest with yourself as well. So, for me, the last few years, the thing that’s excited me is I want to make art, or shows, or books, or series, whatever it is, I want to make things that are raw, that are honest, that are open, because I think a lot of times when you see someone who has attained something in life, when you see someone who’s on TV or doing certain things, you think they are free of problems or free of cares. But I shared a locker room with so many people, I think there’s so many people who gravitate to pro wrestling because there’s this hole inside of them that they’re trying to fill, and I talk a lot in the book about that hole I was trying to fill. I think a lot of us deal with imposter syndrome, a lot of us quietly fight our own mind, so I wanted to just kind of shine more light on this myth that so many people have about people who are public figures and thinking that life is easy or smooth. That’s not to say that I want you to say, ‘Oh, woe is the guy who is making millions of dollars.’ That’s not the point, but I think when we can understand that the human experience is so universal, and that whatever walk of life you come from, that so many of us experience so many of the same struggles, maybe some of us on TV are better at masking them, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t have the same fights or similar fights. So, I just thought the more I could be open and honest, the more I would be able to connect with people who are struggling right now.” 

I love the double meaning of your book title, How I got over. You immediately think about the wrestling terminology of how you get over in the ring. But it’s also for you, how you got over depression, how you got over abuse growing up, how you got over a career-ending injury. How do you dive into all of that in the book? You got over a lot of things that some people may never get over.

“Yeah, a lot of that, it’s a journey. I think being able to better understand myself and my own mind was certainly a journey, and I’m so grateful for therapy in college. It was one of those things where I didn’t grow up in a household where therapy was something that was pushed. It was a man doesn’t show his feelings, he keeps everything bottled inside, he doesn’t cry about what he’s going through, so I had to unlearn a lot of that. I was forced to go to therapy at the age of 19, and I was so fortunate to have an incredible man in Marvin Sims, who, unfortunately, is no longer with us. But he was someone who just took his time with me, and I don’t think I’d be alive if it wasn’t for him. So, it was therapy. I needed medication at the time. I talk about being on a serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, an antidepressant, and an antipsychotic in college. It was that, but for me, man, I really beat the drum so much. If you follow me on Instagram at all, for the most part, you probably see a lot of stuff from Headspace, but I’m a big believer in meditation. That was the app that I used, and it just helped me.”

“I think meditation really can help anyone. One, it’s just allowed me to be so much more present, instead of me worrying about the future. I had so many injuries in college, I tore both my ACLs, I broke my right patella, tore my left pec, all in two and a half years. Every time I had an injury, I got back on the treadmill of overthinking, and my depression got worse and worse and worse. But meditation really just allowed me to deal with a lot of the ups and downs of life. I felt that before, my depression controlled me. I would have to deal with its ups and downs, and its ebbs and flows. But meditation just really allowed me to be at a point where I was able to kind of withstand anything that came my way, it really just gave me such a strong foundation for my mental health. Where, okay, bad things are gonna happen, that’s life. So I’m so grateful, because if it wasn’t for finding meditation during the pandemic, I don’t think I would have handled the injury well. I think I would have spiraled, because I had so many things being thrown at me. One doctor was talking about putting me in a halo, where they drill into your skull, and that was a possibility at one point. They drill the screws into your skull to attach this halo that I would be in for three months. Another option that was discussed was fusing my C1 and C2, and one doctor told me effectively I would be disabled because I would not have the ability to rotate my neck enough to be able to drive, so there was that. I get to the hospital as well, and they told me you were just this close to stroke or paralysis or even death. So I think years before, if I didn’t have the mental tools, I think I would have plummeted. My mental health would have been in a very, very bad place. But I’m so grateful to have had the tools now to be able to deal with all those ups and downs.”

Every time we’d see you in WWE, you’d be so upbeat, a beaming smile coming out of your face. There’s this quote in the early part of your book. “I was colorful and comical. I took great pride in being the escape for others that I had so desperately needed throughout my own life, but I still so often felt hollow. I still constantly thought about what it would be like if I never had to wake up another morning.”

“Yeah, I think people are very used to seeing a certain side of me, it’s something I talk about in the book as well, but I think of the comedians that I loved that ended up struggling with their mental health. I think, like Robin Williams, how I could never understand, how can someone who brings people so much joy struggle?” 

What an interesting dichotomy to go from being beloved. You go out in front of the WWE Universe, everybody’s chanting your name, chanting for The New Day. When you leave, fans are asking for your autograph or asking for a photo, and then you go back to the hotel, and it’s the complete opposite.

“You still have to be you. As much as I loved being able to entertain people, and especially when we were really taking off, that time together was so fun. Kofi and Woods, we talk about all the time about the bond that we built, our brotherhood, it was so beautiful, and it just moved me so much, and it’s so meaningful. But ultimately, you still have to put that aside, and you go to your hotel, you go home. It’s like something I talk about in the book, but that idea of wherever you go, there you are, I can’t run from me. That’s the thing too, I think about in my career is I’ve traveled around the world, I’ve wrestled RVD and Randy Orton in South Africa, I’ve been to Japan at least a half dozen times, wrestled in Europe more times than I can count, I’ve been all over the world, but I’m still in this vessel, I’m still trapped in my mind. It doesn’t matter how much money I make, doesn’t matter how many things I do in my career, how much I travel, all these things that are additive and bring my life more purpose. Until I fix me, until I address the things that I’ve been running from for so long, until I stop trying to shove those childhood wounds inside some closet, and forget them. Until I empty that out, until I actually face it head-on, I’m still going to have to be me. I’m still going to have to fight my mind. So, yeah, it took me a very long time to understand that those trappings, and all the other things you can do in life that are worth celebrating, and I’m proud of, they don’t erase who you are and how you feel about yourself.”

You went from the highest of highs being WWE Champion, you lost the WWE Championship in January of 2022. Two months later, March 11, 2022 is when you break your neck. So to go from that high to that low so quickly, that could have broke you.

“Yeah, man. I had a friend of mine who I’m now super proud of. He’s in LA. He used to work in social media for WWE, Anthony, but he’s doing his acting thing right now and doing well. But we used to have this thing, because we were both kind of quietly struggling with our mental health at the time, and he used to refer to me as the sad clown, because he was one of the few people who knew what I was going through and experiencing. We would also have this joke, and it was a dark joke. But his little thing was, ‘As soon as I retire, within 48 hours, put me on suicide watch.’ Because for me the thought was I always have this constant distraction of travel, of doing shows, you don’t really have time to sit with your mind. But I had that. But when all that stopped, my fear, and I had a real fear of when all that’s over, and you’re home alone, there’s no running from yourself anymore, now you have to really confront your mind and what you’re going through. So for the longest time, I had a real fear that if this came to an end, I don’t know how I would be. I don’t know what would be next for me. I don’t know if I would immediately plummet back to everything I’d struggled with.”

“But yeah, going from having the title, dropping it. We had that Day One PLE in Atlanta, losing to Brock, which initially that was supposed to be me and Seth. It’s supposed to be a singles match, but then Kevin Owens got added to it to become a triple threat. Then Vince, at the time, loved Bobby, so Bobby gets added to it, becomes a four-way. Then, at the time, I don’t know if you remember, Roman gets COVID, allegedly, who knows? But that was the rumor, he got COVID, so he couldn’t be there. So Brock needed a match, so he gets added to our match, and what was supposed to be a singles between me and Seth becomes a five-way, where Brock beats me for the title. But that’s the business, and honestly, the fact alone that I got to be world champion, a guy like me, is pretty incredible. It wasn’t the run that I wanted by any means, but I’m grateful that I got it. But to go from that, to having certain Raws where I felt like I was probably in five or six segments, and then I would have to do the dark match, I’m doing pre-tapes, and there’s a lot on your back. Going from that to immediately being thrust back into, and look, I love the boys, I love The New Day. But to go from, hey, you’re on the show alone, I think they were on SmackDown at the time, I was on Raw, to immediately be like, okay, the idea of you even trying to fight back or get another opportunity, we’re not doing that. Get back to the tag team, it was demoralizing, but the wrestling business is filled with ups and downs and ebbs and flows, and I think a lot of talent get too caught up in kind of the ebbs and flows. You have to be able to ride that wave. So for me the idea was always to fight back, but it was disheartening to be thrust back into a tag team, and then it wasn’t long after that where I get dunked on my head and my career is over. So yeah, a lot of life changes in a couple of months, but more than anything, I’m just so grateful that I had the tools with meditation to be able to deal with it all.” 

Do you remember everything from the night you got injured? 

“Yeah. So I remember we had the tag team match. Thankfully, I didn’t have a concussion at all. I didn’t end up going out, none of those things. So I was with it the whole time. So we had this tag team match, and it was me and Kofi. Woods at the time, I think, was out. Can’t remember [specifically why], a nagging injury he was out with, but he was close to coming back, but he wasn’t quite ready. So it was me and Kofi against the Brawling Brutes. I think Sheamus was on the floor at the time, it was Pete Dunne and Ridge at the time. So we had the tag team match, and I knew it was Kofi and Pete were in at the end, so I think me and Ridge need to figure out some way for us to be low at the end. I know a lot of the feedback I was getting oftentimes was, okay, not only are you a former world champion, but you’re a bigger dude as well, so they wanted me to have something where I was put down for a while. So instead of, hey, take a super kick and you’re down for the finish, sometimes I need to take a bigger bump to justify being down at the end. So I thought, okay, I’ll miss the suicide spear. I was going to take off to hit Ridge, he was going to move, and I actually ended up missing the apron, because oftentimes, when I missed suicide spear, I like to post on the apron as I spill out, so the tumble isn’t quite as nasty. But I ended up not having enough room to do that, but I ended up taking the spill to the floor. But the plan was for Ridge, I asked Ridge what do you want to hit me with? Because we’d worked for a little bit, and actually really liked Ridge. We worked a couple of times. We worked a singles on a house show around that time, I think the three of us did a pretty good job. For us, the idea of, let me just go in, hit on my moves, and make myself look good. It’s not something we were ever invested in. The teams we worked with, we always wanted them to come out [better]. Whether they ended up winning at the PLE, if that was the culmination of the program or not. We wanted to make sure that every team we worked with, our hope was that they came out looking better than they came in. So Ridge, he said he could do an overhead suplex, and I thought, you know, I do overheads all the time. Ryback used to give me overheads. I don’t take a ton of overheads, but Ryback used to give me overhead suplexes. Never had an issue with it, so I thought, yeah, let’s do it. So he moves on the spear, I end up spilling to the floor, announce table side, and I remember just feeding up, and there he hooks me, things feel okay, I end up going up in the air. But I could tell I don’t have enough clearance, but when you’re launched, there’s not a whole lot you can do. I can attempt to put a hand down, but at the time I couldn’t really [react]; it happened so quickly, there was no time to really post or try to bail. So yeah, man, I immediately feel myself get dumped on the top of my head and spill to the floor. But honestly, at the time I didn’t really think much of it.” 

Were you in pain?

“No, not really. I was able to move my fingers and toes right away, just to make sure. I was like, that’s fine. I didn’t go out at all, I didn’t have a headache, didn’t have a concussion. I thought, again, I’m by no means a medical expert, I thought maybe I got a contusion, some kind of neck contusion or something. Let me just stay down for a little bit. I was like, ah, this isn’t great, but I’m not in pain. Maybe I’ll be out for a month or so. Just let this thing heal up, and I’ll be fine. Not a big deal. Thankfully, Dr. Pescasio, who always sits ringside, well, there’s always a doctor sitting ringside, but at the time she was sitting ringside, also from Tampa, my fellow Tampanian. So she was there, she saw it immediately and rushed over. So before I really even had a chance to kind of get my bearings and start moving. I had to be down anyway, so I figured, like, I’m here selling, so I’m just gonna be down. She rushes over, and I felt like it all happened very, very quickly. I said it tongue in cheek, but the very first thing I say as she rushes over is ‘I need to get a new job.’ Just because, you know, between all the ACLs and the right patella and the left back, and I had a herniated disc, I actually missed some time Survivor Series during the pandemic because I herniated a disc. I missed that Survivor Series. I was supposed to be on the Survivor Series team, but I missed some time because I herniated a disc in my neck, and it wasn’t that bad, but I had some weakness in one of my arms, and just not something that I wanted to mess around with. So I was just thinking about all the injuries and everything I’ve done to my body. I told myself for the longest time, see, I’m grateful for the old timers and everything they’ve contributed, but I see so many of the vets who are in their 40s and their 50s and 60s, and so many of them struggled to get around. I put my body through a lot, but I want to have a life afterwards. I want to be able to move around and to enjoy life and to work out and not be in constant pain. So I just kept thinking I put my body through a lot. But anyways, the doctor gets there and we get to the finish pretty much right away, I remember Kofi circled around to check on me, but it was pretty quick where they were getting the EMTs there. They put me on a board, they strapped me in. I just thought, okay, maybe this is a bit much, but with neck stuff you always want to take precautions. But thankfully, the hospital in Birmingham, which is where I went to get my meniscus done, so very familiar. It was very, very close to the arena. They ended up putting me in an ambulance, felt like I was at the hospital, felt like five minutes later. Then they ran a battery of tests and took some scans. Wasn’t long, I think Woods was in town, I think it was backstage, actually. So, the boys brought all my stuff, they grabbed everything, brought it to the hospital, and just stayed. They had a town to get to the next night, I believe, but those guys are family, so they stayed, made sure I was okay, and we just kind of waited for a while, and the news I got was sobering. I did not expect to hear that I broke my C1 in two places. I broke my C6, but the fact that they were so flippant about my C6, ‘Ah, the C6 is not a big deal. It’s a C1 that’s the real concern.’”

“Of all the vertebrae, that’s the one where, like, everything’s on the table, as far as stroke, paralysis, death, all the things that are life-changing or life-ending. So, yeah, getting that news was okay, life is going to be a little different. But honestly, even after they gave me that diagnosis, there was still some hope that I would be just in a hard collar. I can’t remember if it was six weeks or eight weeks, but somewhere in that four to eight weeks, so a month or two of being in a hard collar, and they thought there was a good chance that I could come back. But we took more tests, and honestly, the issue long term was [with] my C1 so I have what’s called a burst fracture or a Jefferson fracture, and that’s when the C1 it’s like a ring, and on opposite sides of that ring are where the C1 was broken, and those spaces were healing with new cartilage instead of forming new bone, so I didn’t have the same kind of integrity of the C1. So that’s been the issue, for my day-to-day life, very normal, I have no issues, but returning to the ring, and if this happened again and I don’t have the same neck integrity, that could be it.”  

That moment changed your career. It also changed Ridge Holland’s career a lot. He got death threats from this. When did you connect with him, and just chat about it?

“It was pretty quickly. I don’t remember the exact timeline, but we ended up talking pretty quickly thereafter. He got a lot of hate, he got threats. On one end I can understand a lot of people. I can appreciate the people who are supportive of me and who wanted to see me continue to wrestle, and felt like he was the reason that I couldn’t, but I know what I signed up for. I know things go awry. It was never malicious. It was never intentional. I felt for him and continued to feel for him. He actually sent me a 10-pound box of meat as an apology, which felt like a very manly thing to do. Here’s a bunch of meat. At the time I really wasn’t eating much red meat, so I was like, oh, this is great, but I sent that to my creative partner, Johnny. Someone enjoyed it, at least. But no, we talked, and he continued to check in. I actually ran into him briefly at the MGM Grand in Vegas for Mania this year. He was on the move, and I was on the move, and there are fans around too, so it’s pretty quick. But it was good to see him. It seemed like he was in a better place, but yeah, I know it really altered his career, and I tried to put out a statement or two to tell people there’s no ill will whatsoever, please leave this man alone. But more than anything, he has a family to take care of. He has kids, and to see him, one, he dealt with a devastating injury of his own. He dealt with losing his job. I really felt for him, continue to feel for him, because I tell people I’m in a great place, I’m very thankful. I still am continuing with the company, doing broadcasting work. I am good, I am truly, truly good. But, yeah, I think he was just in a very difficult position, and I really hate that his tenure in WWE, for the most part, a lot of it’s going to be defined by the injury and his role in it. But I really feel for him and for his family, and I truly hope he’s in a better place. I hope that’s all come to an end, because a lot of people crossed the line and went too far.”

I think a lot of people look at previous neck injuries. Edge came back, Paige came back, Brian Danielson came back. I think a lot of fans think, well, why can’t Big E come back?

“All neck injuries are different, and that’s what I found as someone who is going through this, because my injury, my C6 is broken, but the primary concern, of course, is the C1. Because it is so high up in my neck, and because of the nature of it. Is there a doctor out there who could probably clear me? Maybe. I don’t know, I haven’t done any doctor shopping, but I’m really grateful. So, Tyson Kidd, TJ Wilson reached out to me right away. He and Nattie, I have so much praise for them, because Nattie came by. I don’t live in Florida anymore, but we lived about half an hour from each other. She would stop by, bring by calcium supplements. She would come by to just talk about what TJ went through. My neck injury in many ways, I think of his, and I think mine is nothing compared to [him]. He is fortunate to be alive, and it’s been so beautiful to see how he walks around and how good he is now. But he connected me with Dr. Juan Uribe, who did his neck surgery, I believe, but just a spine expert, and he looked at my scans, and man, it was almost a tone of ‘Please, even if they clear you, please consider being done.’ I talked to a few other doctors who looked at my scans as well, and they felt the same. So when you hear that you are this close to having a stroke in my mid 30s or being paralyzed or dealing with, even if it’s just dealing with atrophy or constant headaches, I feel like, and it’s something I mentioned in the book, as well. It feels like living in a dangerous neighborhood, and you always hear gunshots going off, but finally there’s one that whizzes right by your head, and you’re like, Okay, it’s time to move now. I know I was living in a dangerous neighborhood, I know things were a little perilous, but I’ll be okay, it’s not gonna happen to me. You realize how close the end is for you. In the actual moment, I did not feel like I was going to die. Do not get me wrong, I didn’t feel like I was close to it. I was not worried about it. But when you can understand that if things went just a little bit different, if there was a little bit more movement that could be it. It’s like, man, that is very, very sobering. So, is there a possibility that even if my C1 ossified, and it was forming new bone? I think just knowing that people who do this for a living. Some of the best spine specialists in the world have implored me to hang it up, or to consider hanging it up, I think that’s that’s enough for me. I’m 40 right now. There’s so many other things in my life that I’m excited about that I want to do. 

I’m engaged. I’m about to get married in a few months. I can’t fathom telling Kristen I’m gonna roll the dice with my health and my life again. I can’t do that to her. To finally get to this point where I found my partner, who I want to do the rest of my life with someone I adore. We have so much fun together. The cliche of my best friend can be a cliche for a lot of people. It’s real for us. The idea of so many things in my career I’m excited to do, but if that all goes away, if someone says, ‘Nope, we don’t want to see your face anymore, we’re done with you.’ I will be so content just to be home with my woman and enjoy life. I think when you’re on that WWE hamster wheel, and this is all you know, this is all you are, I am so thankful for it. I am so grateful for it. But I think being having a bit of a foot out of the industry as well has allowed me to understand there’s so much more life out here. Even just having my weekends again, to be able to travel, to hang out with friends, to connect, to go on vacations. I’m so grateful for all of that. So maybe one day I could get cleared. It’s just not a gamble worth taking. It’s when you understand the importance of your C1 and the potential costs. I’m just not willing to take those risks.”

I think people forget that New Day was not over when you guys debuted. People hated you.

“No, it sucks. It sucks, man. We were motivational preachers. “

What was the original pitch?

“So the original pitch was for us to be the new Nation of Domination. So it was me. I don’t know if you remember Abraham Washington. So Abe Washington had a talk show on WWECW where Tony Atlas was his sidekick. All he would do was just laugh from time to time. But I’m telling you, people didn’t get to see the best of Abe. Abe is one of the best talkers I’ve ever been around. He would come into FCW, and he would cut these promos for Dusty. We would usually have these hard outs. You have a minute, maybe give you a minute and a half. Alex Riley and Abe Washington were the two guys who had an exception to just go. People didn’t get to see the best of Alex Riley as a promo, either. Dude was just incredible on the mic, but Abe was also just a masterful talker. 

So we were in FCW, it was me, Byron Saxton was still an active wrestler at the time. It was me, Saxton, Woods, and Abe. We all talked, but Abe was kind of positioned as the leader, and we had this group, and Abe was very much someone who unfortunately liked to push the envelope a little bit too much. I’m not going to talk about the reason he got fired, you could look that up. But he’s someone who always liked to kind of to put his foot over the line and see how far we could push things. We originally called the group the Clan, and it stood for Citizens Liberation of American Nationalism. It was supposed to be this militant black group, much in the vein of the Nation of Domination. We all grew up loving The Nation, and we wanted to do something in that vein. That group initially, it was initially the Clan, then we became The Plan, because the office said we’re not doing that. So we exchanged citizens for people, so that was it. We came out in white and red, so that very first suit that you see Woods come out in, that was like his old stuff from when we were pitching The Plan in FCW, so we never got to do that on FCW TV. We did a few weeks of that, and then eventually the office in FCW said it’s dead, you guys can’t do this anymore, move on. But Woods, at the time, talks about having the worst debut of all time, because he comes up as R-Truth’s friend on the main roster, and almost right away, he’s kind of getting squashed. But he comes up to me, it was Extreme Rules of 2014 and he and Truth had a handicap match with Rusev. They both get killed, really, Woods gets killed within, I feel like a few seconds, and he was done for. Then Truth gets squashed right after. That same day I dropped the IC title to Bad News Barrett, who was red hot at the time. The death nail, I think, as a babyface is when you go out and when they don’t care at all. But to have fans when I’m blowing my comeback and they’re booing, they’re booing everything, they don’t want to see me. I was also a very boring character was kind of dead in the water. Barrett was a lot of fun. 

So that same day, Woods is dead in the water. I’m dead in the water. Kofi is a guy who has had five, six years into his main roster run, already a guy you know is going to be good, but kind of just seen as by the office as a good hand. So we kind of get to Kofi later, but Woods goes in and pitches the writers that day, pitches them this idea of doing a new Nation of Domination. They essentially laugh him out of the room, and he comes up to me after my match. I dropped the title, and he said, ‘Hey, what do you think about starting this group, kind of similar to what we did in FCW?’ I said, ‘I got nothing else, man.’ I always respected Woods as someone who was a very, very creative guy, just someone who was always pitching, always thinking outside the box. So I thought, man, you know what, he’s someone who I think has a ton of ideas. Let’s give it a shot. Honestly, that same day, I was told by creative, I was told by Road Dogg, ‘Look, we like you, but we got nothing for you. Essentially, we need you to go into pre-tapes and just try stuff.’ I went into pre-tapes that same day, after I don’t know if it was before or after talking to Woods, and we just tried stuff, and just tried a bunch of deliveries, and actually the last thing I ended up trying was, I grew up in the church, I grew up actually doing some preaching as a teenager myself in my dad’s church. So that oratory style was always very natural for me. I never wanted to do anything sacrilegious or blasphemous, so I always kind of avoided that, but I just thought there could be a way to do this in a way that’s not offensive to people who believe or Christians. I’m not trying to do anything that upsets people.

So I just kind of went into pre-tapes and started doing the ‘next week, I’m about to grab the title…’ I feel like I can just riff and just do it. The great thing with that delivery is it’s always easy if you lose your place. It’s very easy to have a moment to repeat and give yourself a moment to come and kind of come up with something. So that style of promo and delivery was something very natural for me. So just knowing that the office really had nothing for me, that Woods was in need of something. I just said, ‘Let’s do this, man. Let’s give it a shot.’ Woods first came up with the idea of adding Kofi. I love Kofi. We interacted a little. He and I both trained at Cena’s gym, so I’d see him in Tampa from time to time. But my fear is they would never let him turn heel, and I thought for us to work as a group, we needed to be heels. So, from there, I don’t know if I fought it as much. I was just like, I don’t know, but eventually I get on board, and I say, okay, let’s talk to Kofi. Interestingly, Kofi, at the time, was kind of not really having the best time wrestling, and it was interesting, he even himself, he was thinking, “Maybe I want to retire early, maybe I want to be done. I kind of feel like I’ve kind of hit my glass ceiling. I think I’m good. But eventually we were kind of floored with how excited he was at the idea, and he was in, so we just kind of went from there, and we ended up spending months and months pitching that militant group. We actually got to be on TV. We were in South Florida when Woods comes out in that white and red suit and tells us we’re no longer going to be glad-handing and kissing babies and shaking hands, and we’re going to take what we want, and we did that for about a week.

That idea was shelved, and then we had to go back to repitching, but eventually we got to be The New Day that people knew and loved. But it was months and months and months of pitching. The three of us were on house shows together. We didn’t have a name, but we got to work on chemistry, but we very quickly realized we have something here. We see the business the same, we want the same for each other. We never wanted one leader. We always liked the idea of all three of us being viewed in the same plane, and we just had so much fun together, so we knew it’s worth dying on this hill for, because we all were in desperate, we were all searching for something.”

How did ‘Don’t you dare be sour…’ become your catchphrase?

“So Vince wanted us to have some kind of an intro. I never wanted to be the focal point of the groups, because I did not think that was fair to the other three. So we went into the studio, we got to work with Jim Johnson, the legend, to actually be in the studio with him in Stanford. So we went up to shoot our vignettes, and we also got to be in the studio with him to work on it, and it was just so great to hear his ideas, and to chop it up with him; it was awesome, such a great experience. So I went into the booth, and one thing they wanted is for me to lay down a bit of an intro. So ‘It’s a new day, yes it is.’ We did that. So I thought, okay, this is our little preamble, because I always think with wrestling themes, you always want that when you hear the glass break, you know it’s Austin in two seconds. I always want that within two seconds, I always want to know exactly who it is. So, I thought that was our thing. Okay, we have the ‘It’s a new day, yes it is.’ We’re good. But the office, they wanted something else on top of that. Okay, I guess I’ll try something. I want to say we were tinkering around with a few different things, I’d have to go back and listen to those first couple ones, because I know I didn’t have [my idea]. My thought was I’ll come up with something new for each town, and we did something like we were in Fort Lauderdale, and the only reason I remember this is because Austin Woods and Kofi would often mention it, but my first one was something like all ‘Fort La De Daddy, you feel it in your body.’ I came up with a different rhyme, and I forgot how I closed it, but I was like, this isn’t tenable. I’m not going to be able to come up with something for every [town], especially then. If you’re on the Raw loops, you’re doing five shows a week, every single week in a different town. I’m not going to have the time and the acumen to come up with a new little four-bar rhyme for every single town. So I don’t remember exactly how we settled on it, but I kept tinkering around with it a little bit, and I’m sure I probably saw one of those hand dryers that says feel the power, because people send that from to me from time to time. I’m sure it was that being in my head, but I just wanted something with Oh [town]! We decided fairly early that feel the power was something that was going to be a good catchphrase. We just kind of worked backwards from there with the don’t you dare be sour, okay, that’ll work. So we tinkered with it a little bit, and then I just felt like, okay, that’s that’s the thing moving forward, and it’s been great, because now not only do I have a thing that works for the new day and in wrestling, but also I got to do the intros for Nascar. So it’s like, okay, I have this built-in thing, I got to do the last two walkouts for Showtime Sean Porter, in boxing he fought Errol Spence, which was a big deal. I got to do that walkout for the Bud Crawford fight as well. So now having this built-in thing that I can kind of tinker with, I’m on Cameo, and right now I’m doing a lot of stuff. So all my cameos right now, the proceeds are used to go to Feeding America.”

Talk to me about the buildup of them turning heel on you.

“So, I know a lot of the complaints afterwards were, ‘If Big E wasn’t going to get cleared, why are we doing this?’ We were not in limbo about me being cleared or not. We knew that those guys really wanted to turn heel, and they wanted to do something with me that would service that. Initially, the goal was Jey was a babyface at the time, very hot, and the initial thought was, okay we’ll do something where the physicality is on Jey, that gets shut down. We thought, oh, R-Truth is beloved, maybe the physicality would be on Truth, that gets shut down. So we thought, okay, these guys want to turn heel. I know I’m not going to be cleared. We’re not leading to anything with those guys, so they kind of came up with a bit of an idea, and I thought, okay, cool, this is what you want to do. I’m still in this position where I’m with the company, and it doesn’t behove me for me to be a heel commentator, that’s not what we’re trying to do.

So I was like, this is the message I’m putting out in the world. I’m talking about meditation and mindfulness, so I’m gonna remain a babyface. Those guys will be heels. So it wasn’t long before we all kind of put our heads together, and we had this idea. We never really had seen a turn with no physicality. In the month or so prior, those guys were doing such a great job of building tension between the two of them. I still remember that one promo they cut where they lose the tag match. I feel like we do it less these days, but that follow shot, where the camera is with them with their frustration at the end of the match, follows them through Gorilla to outside of Gorilla, and we see Kofi and Woods just saying terrible things to each other. I think what I love about that moment is we have been so purposeful about always talking about our brotherhood, how close we are, never breaking up, we love each other, we’re always fighting for each other. The importance of KofiMania and the sacrifice of me and Austin to make the sacrifice for Kofi, because we love him so much. 

So this is the first time you really see any real tension, and it’s like this idea of the worst things that you’ve been holding on that you can’t say to your brother because you love him, but these things have been floating in there. But now in this moment of anger, saying the things that you can’t take back. So those guys did such a phenomenal job of building tension, and the timing was also great for me and the message I was putting out in the world, because the Players Tribune article actually came out the same day we did the turn. So that comes out that morning, and I think one of the lines in there was about how The New Day saved me, about how this brotherhood and this path we took together just changed me in so many ways. So to have that heartfelt thing come out, talking about my own struggles with mental health, and then that same day, have the breakup, it just felt so juicy. But for me, we always had to be so, we often refer to it as happy clappy. That idea of we drop a title, the next night [we are happy], and that was the directive. Hey, you still come out with a big smile on your face, you still come out clapping. We never really got to do anything with some real, you could argue KofiMania had emotional weight, but nothing like this.

So, the idea of doing something with some real gravitas, or something that actually hit people in the chest, was exciting. So, I had some feedback, and I thought the idea of, please forgive me audience, but I thought the idea of throwing out this hook of I could return, I could help you remember who you are, I could come here, I’m not cleared yet, but I’ll be your manager, I’ll be here with you weekly, we’ll bring back that old New Day that people remember and love, we’ll get our juice back. I love the idea of throwing out a hook that got people up, and then having those two take it away, and just that moment of, and for me too. With the article, I was reliving a lot of my pain, a lot of my struggle, and I just wanted to stay in that feeling, as someone who is trying to do more acting and learning more about actors’ process, I wanted it to feel real and genuine.” 

We felt it!

“Thank you. That’s what I wanted. So I tried to stay in, I tried to keep those feelings in mind and thinking about my angst, and carry that with me to that performance later that night, we were in Everett, Washington. I had so many people reach out and talked about, look, I know this is entertainment, I know it’s a show, but man, it’s heartbreaking. I had so many people, people who know that what we do is a work, who were like, ‘Is this real? Are you guys actually talking? I know it’s a show, but is this real behind the scenes?’ But I love that we were able to really hook people. I think, unfortunately, you know, those guys were getting booed out of the building for the first several weeks. It’s the follow-up that, unfortunately, I don’t think went as well as we all would have liked. I even pitched an idea. I love the idea of me sitting for the Rumble. Imagine Kofi does a save where he ends up on the barricade. There’s some dude with his hat low because they were taking shots at my fiancée at the time too, so I love the idea, maybe our hats are real low at the time, Kofi lands on the barricade. We tilt our heads up, take our hats off, and then maybe there’s a swipe of the foot, and we cost him the Rumble, he goes out, something like that. But creative had other plans, I was told, ‘Hey, that’s something we can get to later, ‘and I’m not a save it guy. Oftentimes, people like, oh, let’s save that idea for later, but things with creative and direction move so much, we have a great idea, let’s capitalize on it now. But ultimately those were the two who were going to carry it. Creative had ideas. My role is now as a broadcaster for the PLEs, so ultimately I just thought let’s try to make this break-up the best we can, and the rest is in their hands. So unfortunately, the follow-up of that turn didn’t go the way we wanted, but we were proud of the initial heel turn.”

Was it the frustration of how that heel turn went that led to Xavier Woods and Kofi Kingston leaving WWE?

“I don’t want to speak for them. I know when the time is right, I’m sure they’ll have a lot of things to say. There are things out there about pay cuts and whatnot. I just know, look, this ownership is not the same ownership that existed when we first signed to the company. It is their company, it is not ours. So they make their decisions with how pay goes, and ultimately, we all have to abide by that, and you understand that it is not your ball. It was not our ball when we first signed to the company. It is not our ball now. It is someone else’s ball to determine when you get in the game and how many carries you got. So they made a decision, and I just kind of want to leave that in their hands to be able to decide. I can’t fully speak to a lot of that, but I think we, as performers, we all want to feel valued, you want to feel like people want you here, there’s a plan for you, and we’re going to compensate you accordingly. When you feel like that plan is not in accordance with your plan, or the money doesn’t line up with the way you see yourself valued, you have to make a decision on whether you’re going to say, “Yes, this is what I will accept, or “No, this is not what I’m going to accept. So they made a decision to step away, and I respect [that]. Those guys will always be my family, regardless of what company we’re in, regardless of how old we are. What we built is bigger than companies, it’s bigger than our industry. If it wasn’t for them, I wouldn’t be in the financial position I’m in. I wouldn’t have the breadth and myriad of incredible experiences, even just getting comfortable in my own skin. I credit those guys for so much of that. I look back on our time in The New Day, and we could talk about how my career was cut short, we could talk about the things that didn’t happen in my career, but I knew I was in the good old days. When I was in the good old days, I knew this was it, and I was able to enjoy it. You’re always pushing for more. You’re oftentimes annoyed with booking or disgruntled with certain decisions, but I knew we had lightning in a bottle, and not just on screen, but off-screen. The way we traveled together, the amount, the laughs we had, I can’t tell you how many times I had to wipe tears of laughter out of my eyes. So many times when we were just, we had too much fun. I don’t think we ever had a blow-up, we never had an argument, we never had a time where we butted heads, really ever. If we had any minor disagreements, they were about creative process, and we were able to get on the same page immediately, the way we work together, our synergy, it’s special. So those guys are family, and will always be family. And I will always root for their prosperity. I will always, always root for their fulfillment. I just want them to be happy. So, if they’re happy at home, if they’re happy wrestling in VFW halls, if they’re happy doing conventions, gaming, whatever it is that they want to do with their lives that fulfills them, as long as they ain’t hurting anyone, fully support it.”

“Big meaty men slapping meat.” Had you ever said that before?

“No, no, no. I think it was my first time, and that silly clip I feel like is going to outlive me of all the things I’ve done in my career, but I’m grateful for it. So, and the really cool thing is a lot of times the clip gets shortened, so you don’t see who asks the question. That’s my guy, Rashad Dunn, former Iowa football player. We came in, we’re the same age, he’s like three, four days older than me. So we came in at the same time, we were roommates for two years. We still talk all the time. We have this core group of guys who lived in a house, actually the same house, so George Kittle has 830 Miller tattooed on his ass, because that’s that’s the house, CJ Bethard, who played with the 49ers as well, also went to Iowa, so those guys many years after us, they lived in the same house that we lived in, 830 Miller in Iowa City, that was our house as well. So Rashad, we flew him out to do the podcast, and we did this mailbag episode, and he asked me the question, so the guys are already getting primed for it. Because we do so much press together, we did so many interviews, they knew I was doing the Goldberg, and I would always, I would always ham it up a bit. I mean, I hammed everything up, definitely at the time, too. So they knew the Goldberg answer was coming, so that’s why you hear some of the little giggles and the tee hees coming already, but we would always have a lot of fun anytime people would ask us, our dream match, I knew every time Woods was going to say Too Cold Scorpio, he’s a huge Too Cold Scorpio fan, just his athleticism is kind of just ridiculous for a guy of his size. We always knew that Kofi was gonna answer Shawn Michaels, and they always knew my answer was Goldberg. So, yeah, the Goldberg answer just came out, and we all had a fit of the giggles, and sometimes you’re just feeling it, and it was just one of those moments where I started getting hot, just I felt the sweat come in. But just the energy of the room was a lot of fun, and yeah, and then a bunch of nonsense proceeded from that. But to see years later to hear meat chants at shows. I’m not saying this is the reason why, but you know, Booker now is doing the ‘No bread, no water, just meat.’ The fact that people understand you when you’re in a wrestling setting and you’re talking about meat, whether it’s the big meaty men or the big meaty ladies. I love that is the way you describe a hoss match. And to this day, on Twitter, on Instagram, I will still have people tag me. ‘Oh, I know Big E is smiling now.’ If there is an Oba Brock match, or even like an indie match, where two big men, or two big women are going toe to toe. So it is a very, very silly, silly thing. I thought we were gonna be able to make merch. What I was told at the time that legal said no dice, so there’s no merch. But it’s a lot of fun, and I’m glad of all the things we’ve done, I’m glad that’s followed me.”

What is Big E grateful for?

“My fiancée Kristen, for wrestling, and this community.”

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