Joseph Sawyer (@joe_gacy) is a professional wrestler best known for his time in WWE as Joe Gacy. He sits down with Chris Van Vliet in Orlando, FL to discuss him and the rest of the Wyatt Sicks being released by WWE, the group’s incredible debut, winning the Tag Team Championships, memories of Bray Wyatt, his controversial NXT persona that became mainstream news, being part of “the most illegal move in wrestling” viral video, the Wyatt Sicks having their own attraction at Universal’s Halloween Horror Nights, what’s next for him in wrestling and more!

This question gets thrown around a lot in the world, but I mean this in the most intentional way. How are you doing?

“I’m doing good. I think I wouldn’t have thought that years ago, having known where I’m at now. But yeah, I don’t know. I feel good. I feel motivated. I feel hopeful. So feeling good.”

Where do you go from here?

“Well, from here, as soon as everything kind of went down, I tried to hit the ground running as quick as I could with what I’m allowed to do at the time. So I just kind of took a day and started organizing some stuff and getting some things in order, but you know now it is time to get back out there. It’s been six years, I think, since I’ve been kind of out of the wrestling scene otherwise. So kind of reeducating myself on the state of independent wrestling, other companies wrestling. So yeah, I’m just ready to get back out there and get moving.”

Did you have any idea that this might be coming? That you might get released?

“So I think there was a little inkling. I don’t know. As far as the group, I don’t know if anyone else in the group felt it, but I think I had a little inkling. We were in Las Vegas. It was WrestleMania week, and we were doing SmackDown. It was supposed to be the big blow-off match with MFTs, so they told us we were doing a street fight. So it was the week before we were supposed to do a promo to hype up the match, this and that, and we did it. We actually pitched a way to do it, and they really liked it, and we shot it, and it was actually the first chance, really, for each of us in the group to have a little part of the promo because they kind of kept us quiet a lot of the time and let Taylor do a lot of the talking. But we did one where we each had a little piece that we got to write ourselves and came off good. The writers said this was great, we need more of this, and then they cut it from the TV and they just aired it online. So I think we were all a little like that’s kind of weird. Then they told us, ‘Oh, it was a timing thing, ran out of time.’ I was like, okay. These are kind of things I’m looking back at now and kind of realizing I think the ball was already kind of rolling.” 

“Then I guess the big thing. So in Vegas, we were actually originally planned to make an appearance at the Tony Hitchcliffe show he was doing. There was supposed to be a thing where we were, I guess, originally pitched to come out and like kidnap him. It ended up being, Undertaker gave him a choke slam through a table. So instead of that, it was supposed to be something with us. Then they told us, I think it was the day before, it’s not happening now. We’re like, okay, no problem. And then going into SmackDown, us being the babyfaces, they didn’t allow us to use a lot for the match. In my head, I was like yeah, there’s like stuff going on for the main event. I understand sometimes they have things planned for other people they don’t want us to touch. That’s totally fine. Then the big thing was, and I’m not one to complain about this type of thing, but they had MFTs going over on us, and as us being the babyfaces, and this being the blow-off, we’re all kind of a little confused about that decision. Even some other guys in the locker room were like, it’s really weird that they’re over on you guys. So you know, it was fine, but I think just the overall vibes, just interactions, small interactions I had backstage, and that whole weekend seemed a little off. So I don’t know. I had this sixth sense that something was coming, and I didn’t know what it was, and I just hoped we’ll get through this, and then post WrestleMania, we’ll hopefully move on to the next thing and get something good going. And that is not what happened.” 

Then it wasn’t long after that that you got the phone call.

“Actually, it followed up after Vegas. I think this was really kind of the icing on the cake to tell me something definitely was going on. We were supposed to have a SmackDown in Fort Worth, which we were booked. We had it on our schedule. We got travel for it, and then I think I asked travel a question about a flight, and then they just came back with, ‘You guys are actually canceled off the show, so I’m gonna cancel your travel.’ So we were like huh, that’s interesting. So I had to cancel all my hotels and stuff. I don’t know if it was that day or maybe a week after that, or I think it might have been that day, actually, if I remember right. So it might have been a week after Vegas that we got the call. I guess everyone called it Black Friday or whatever. Yeah, so that was when that happened.”

Did you think the whole group was going to get released? I think fans were so surprised by that. 

“We were surprised as well, and I know we were talking about it. I’m shocked that they let all of us go. I’m shocked that they let Taylor go. I thought for sure if it’s gonna be us, he’ll still be there doing something. But it was strange because I remember it too. I was about to get a shower, and my phone rang and I saw it was a Stanford number. I was like well, that could either be good or bad. So I took a shower, got out of the shower, and then the group had a group chat. So I just texted in the group chat like, ‘Hey, did anyone else get a phone call?’ And I think it was Dexter, who was like, ‘Yep.’ I was like, ‘Is it what I think it is?’ And he was like, ‘Yep.’ I was like, all right, then. So I called them back and then had that conversation.”

Can you pinpoint the moment when the Wyatt Six started losing momentum?

“I think, in my opinion, it’s because they didn’t really allow us to develop individually. So I think a lot of the focus was on Taylor, which obviously makes sense. He’s the leader. I do feel like that if they allowed us to develop a little bit more individually, like even our first VHS tapes that were put out early on after the debut. I know Rowan had a chance, his VHS vignette was a little longer than ours. But I filmed one where I cut a whole promo, and they just didn’t use it. They just had me humming and rocking back and forth. I just feel like if we had the chance to develop a little more, get a little bit more connection with the audience. Unfortunately, there was a time when Taylor had to take some time off because of a health issue. They kind of pushed pause on us, and I think that not allowing us to have that little development where we could have carried things on a little bit on our own, he took the time off, we could have still carried on and done stuff creatively without him, and then could have had a big moment when he came back. I think that was maybe the beginning, because I guess in their eyes, there the group was Taylor, which I do to an extent understand, but I think we just weren’t given the chance to develop ourselves so we can also become more of a presence in the group.”

When the Wyatt Six debuted, it’s this beautiful one-shot, and the crowd’s going crazy. They’re chanting for you guys. They’re chanting for you guys just to stand there. How did it feel being part of that?

“So I guess leading into that was a whirlwind for me because I was a fresh call-up from NXT. First thing I do is get put in this position where I’m in this group, a legacy group, with Taylor and all the other guys and Nikki. So going in, it was a big deal and it was a lot of excitement, and I think leading up to the day it was all excitement, and then the day of when we got there and we put our gear on and we were rehearsing, it started slowly setting in how heavy it was. We rehearsed that one shot so many times before the show, I’d say 10 times maybe. Then when it was go time, that was the moment I got nervous. I felt fine up until then, and then as soon as we were ready to go, the nerves hit me, and I realized the weight of what we were doing in this situation.”

I feel like at least with that debut, they hit it out of the park.

“It could not have gone better for us, especially my debut on the main roster. I don’t think a lot of people get to say that they had such a huge, successful main roster debut. So it was heavy, but as soon as the moment was done, everyone was happy. It was such a feeling, like I can’t even fully describe how it felt, and I think even like the weeks following after that, it was still crazy to me that I was in this position doing this, being a part of this legacy, and continuing it. I mean, I’m here now, still looking back going it almost doesn’t feel real that it happened. I guess because it was so fast as well. But yeah, it’s very, very wild.”

How did you get approached for this?

“Yeah, so I think I do think powers that be kind of knew what was coming. So my tail end of my run at NXT was a little bit of almost like yeah, do what you want. So for a little bit of time there, I kind of just had fun. I did me, and Shawn Michaels had his input. Obviously, it was mostly his idea, but he kind of let me loose a little bit, I think for the first time, because I feel like he probably didn’t even know when the call-up or when it was actually going to happen. Because when I first heard it was supposed to happen sooner. So a guy named Rob Fee, who was in creative, reached out to me and kind of gave me the heads up and was like, ‘Hey, don’t be upset if your time on NXT TV starts going down a little bit. This is what’s coming.’ So he kind of gave me the heads up about it, and I was like oh, okay. And then at that point, it was like months. It was months later that any movement happened on it. But yeah, I mean, I think it was more of a, ‘Hey, this is the idea. This is what they want to do.’ I’m just like, oh, this is crazy. Yes, let’s do this.”

What were you told was the inspiration, or what the focus would be on this? Because you’re paying homage to the Wyatt family,

“Yeah, I think that was kind of the pitch was we’re continuing on the legacy, and the whole idea of the group was, and I don’t think this was ever conveyed properly through promos or anything on TV was really the idea is that each member of the group, we are who we used to be. I was the same Joe Gacy from NXT at the time, but the whole idea was that Bo Dallas was now in this place he’s in becoming Uncle Howdy, split personality. It’s almost like a cult idea where he kind of convinced us hey, we can have this family together, and the idea was he pushed these, you know, lack of a better term, characters on us because they were from the Firefly Funhouse. So, in his mind, the crazy side of Bo Dallas saw, for instance, me as Huskus, like I was the puppet of Huskus, just brought to life, sort of. So, as the idea for the group was we were all kind of in on it. I know I’m Joe Gacy, but I’m also using the live puppet Huskus as far as a personality. So I know it’s a little complex, I guess, to explain on TV, but I don’t even think we touched upon that like at all. But the whole idea was it started as we’re going to be a family. We are a chosen family together, and we were supposed to stick by each other. We never even wanted to tease any kind of like animosity or anything like that. So I think they just wanted us to be psychopaths essentially.

When you debuted on NXT, it was controversial. You had this character that was like talking about this is a safe space. I just feel like it ended up going out into the mainstream media too.

Yes, yes, it did. Well, that was a crazy time. So I get hired in 20/21 post-COVID group to come into the Performance Center. Almost for a year, I’m kind of just there, doing classes, meeting everybody, trying to find my way on TV. I guess in my head, I’m like, all right, well, I’m here, so now I have to figure out how I get on. So it did start, my technical first debut was we had the tournament, the NXT Breakout Tournament, and I had a match and I went out first round. That was still when it was like black and gold era, but then they kind of told us like, hey, things are changing. We’re going to be starting like a new version of NXT, and then that’s when the conversation started for the new character. It began as Shawn Michaels’ full idea. He kind of saw it the way he explained it to me was more of like a Scientology-type thing turn into a social justice warrior kind of thing, but the whole idea was always going to be that it would eventually turn into kind of a cult thing.”

I saw some comparisons to Right to Censor:

“It was always supposed to be like I have this nice smile, I’m a nice guy, but there’s just something underneath that’s not right. That was always supposed to be the idea. So the debut, I did my first promo, I did a match against Cameron Grimes, and it was well received backstage. Everyone was super happy with it, and then I think the next day it got a bunch of headlines. I think the headline might have been, ‘WWE pokes fun at the woke left.’ I saw that and was like, oh, well, that’s not what it was supposed to be. So the word is, this is when Vince McMahon was still in charge. He saw the headline and got very upset. Shawn Michaels called me and said, ‘Hey, Vince is not too happy with what happened. Unfortunately, we’re gonna have to take you off TV for a little bit, and I was like, okay.’ He’s like, ‘Don’t worry, we’re gonna figure it out.’ I was like, okay, understood.”

That’s got to be scary 

“I was scared. I made my first debut. Thought it was awesome. I knocked it out of the park, and now, oh, now I’m off TV. So the idea was the next week they were gonna kind of Easter egg me in a backstage, we shot it. I was just backstage somewhere hugging somebody, I think it was. Show starts, they do like the pre-show stuff around 7:30. TV starts at eight, I think it’s maybe 6:45. I get a text to come to Shawn’s office. I go in Shawn’s office, and it’s him and one of the head writers, and they have, I believe, Bruce Prichard on the phone, and they’re just typing this promo, and I’m like, ‘What’s going on?’ And they’re like, ‘All right, so we’re gonna have you go out and cut this promo today. So it turns out Vince saw the headline and kind of freaked out, but then he actually went back and watched it and apparently loved it.’ So he was on board after he actually watched the actual promo. So they typed me out like a three-page promo, and I had to remember it in 30 minutes, and that was probably the most stressful time in my life and career ever. I just locked myself away in a corner somewhere, just kept going over it, going over it, going over it. And there was a writer at the time there named Jim Smallman who kept checking in with me, like, ‘You think you got it?’ You got it. I’m like, I think we’re gonna do this.” 

Who was Joe Gacy before WWE?

“Well, I probably was a little bit of a dark character, but I do have a fun side. I think before I went to WWE, I was, lack of a better term. I had like a little bit of a dark character, but I still was still was me. I didn’t really have like a full-on gimmick. I guess I just had more of a vibe. So you know, I had times where I had fun, so I wasn’t always like a dark character. I would probably joke too much at times, and I’d have to reel myself in to not become a comedy wrestler. So that was when I kind of started to try to really focus on trying to be more serious at the time.”

How long in advance did you know that you were gonna win the tag team titles?

“Like 10 minutes before the match. I love Nashville. The crowd there’s great. So that was part of the day, I guess creative was trying to figure out what the ending was because maybe they didn’t fully decide we were going over yet. I don’t really know, but yeah, it was us and Street Profits, we had the match put together, it’s almost time, and we still don’t know what the finish is. We’re just like, okay. Then the producer came in and was like, all right, this is what we’re doing. So then we had to hurry up and get the finish together, and then that’s when, in that time is when we basically found out, like, oh, we’re about to win the tag titles.”

How well did you know Bray Wyatt?

“So funny enough, I met him several times. Never really full conversations with each other. We ran into each other at the PC once. It was like a hello, hello. And then after he passed is when everybody started telling me how much he thought of me and said he wanted to come down to NXT and do something with me, and I’m like, I had no idea; this is the first I’m hearing about it, and I got upset. Obviously, you know, it’s a shame. Obviously, everything that happened, and I could have only wished. It was. It’s great to hear that he wanted to do something, but now I’m like, well, I really wish we could have. It would have been definitely one of my bucket list highlights in my career to be able to do something like that with him.” 

My absolute favorite viral wrestling moment of all time, and I show this to my friends who aren’t wrestling fans all the time. Yeah, the most illegal move in the history of pro wrestling. He’s using hypnosis. What is the story behind this?

“Okay, well, this is a good story. So, it all started. The other tag team in that clip is the Osirian Portal. Two guys I actually used to backyard wrestle with. All four guys in that match, we all were a part of the same backyard wrestling promotion. So they did the hypnosis thing already. That was something they’ve done in their matches, and me and the Ophidian, the snake, were kind of talking because as those two tag teams, we had kind of a feud in different indie companies, and we were like, ‘Wouldn’t it be awesome if you like hypnotized us, and we did like a dance off. So my partner at the time, a guy named Ryan Slater, was mad about it. He was like, ‘I don’t want to do it. I think if we just have a wrestling match…’ Then the three of us kind of were like, ‘No, I think we should do it.’ So we forced them to do it. The best part about it is, this is probably not the most professional way to go about this. The promoter had no idea that we were doing this. He apparently was not too happy. But then when it went viral, I guess he was like, Okay.”

Well, then how did you cue the music?

“So we just told the music guy. Yeah, the music guy was in on it. So yeah, then we did that, and I think the Osirian Portal guys, I think they were excited because they knew I had, not like a background in dancing, but I could I could do some dancing.”

And then when the promoter who was mad about this, when you got to talk to him, how did that go? 

“He was just like, ‘Why’d you do that?’ We were like, ‘I don’t know. Thought it’d be good?’ That’s about it.”

You were Joe Gacy on the Indies. You were Joe Gacy in WWE. Do you own the name Joe Gacy?

“So at a time I did. When I got hired, just like anybody else that gets hired and begins at the Performance Centre. They suggest, hey, come up with a list of names. I had like a list of 20 names, and I went through a bunch of them, and I’m like, I don’t like a lot of these or whatever. And then I had one I really liked. Funny enough, it was called Mason King. This was before Lexxis King, so that was when I was really pitching. Then they were like, ‘We actually like Joe Gacy.’ I was like, you do? I was very confused because at the time I was trying to get away from the Gacy name. I thought of it when I was very young, and then when I grew up and matured a little bit, I’m like, well, this is probably not a name I want to keep using.”

What’s the name you’re going to move forward with?

“Joseph Sawyer is the name I have chosen.”

Have you thought about where you would want to sign somewhere? Would you want to work under contract when you’re able to? 

“I would love to, given the opportunity. I think I’m excited to dip my toes back into indie wrestling. But for me, I mean, I think I’m a TV guy. I want to be on a TV production company. I want to be in a TV wrestling company. That’s how I see it. I just learned so much being with WWE that it’s kind of ingrained in me now. I was there for six years, so now they twisted my brain into seeing wrestling differently than I used to.” 

In what way? 

“I think just understanding the TV product maybe a little bit more than I thought I did. I’ll be honest. When I first got in, I was like, oh, maybe I’ll spend some time at the PC and get put right on. I had a little bit of a rude awakening, not realizing how much went into producing a TV match, hitting times, hitting break spots, all kinds of different things like that, and I like to think I got pretty decent at it. So I think I’m at a point where I would love to marry the TV style with the indie style. I feel like there was a time in NXT that was prominent, but now I feel like they’ve done away with it a little bit, so now I’m hoping to have an opportunity to go somewhere and kind of do that and be able to show a little bit more of what I can do.”

It must have been so cool when they did the Wyatt Six at Halloween Horror Nights.

“That was probably the next level. Okay, so I talked about winning a title. That was something that was always in the realm of possibility with the company. I’m like, that could happen. Never in a million years did I ever think I could have a house at Universal Halloween Horror Nights one day. That was never a thought in my mind ever. So when I heard that was a possibility, I was like, “Yeah, I believe it when I see it. Then it was almost rumors. And then all of a sudden, somebody sent me a picture of like what they were building, and I was like, Oh, so this is real. So that was crazy, like lack of a better term. That was so crazy, so surreal, and yeah, something I tried to soak in as much as I could while it was happening.”

What is Joe Gacy grateful for?

“My wife, my health and support.”

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