Samuel Shaw (@thesamuelshaw) is a professional wrestler best known for his time in WWE as Dexter Lumis. He sits down with Chris Van Vliet in Nashville, TN to discuss why he didn’t talk in WWE, the inspiration behind his psychotic character, how he became a part of The Wyatt Sicks, being in one of the few wrestling weddings that did not end in disaster, working with The Miz, getting released by WWE, what’s next, and more!
I was just thinking before we hit record, this is going to be the first time that a lot of people hear your voice. You didn’t talk a lot in WWE.
“I sure didn’t. It’s funny because fans come to me, like last weekend at WrestleCon, or this appearance I did in Phoenix. Randoms will come up to me and be like, ‘I loved you on Tacoma FD.’ I’m like, ‘You watched that, so you heard me speak.’ People are blown away by that. I do actually speak, I was playing a character.”
Why didn’t that character speak?
“I don’t really know why they decided, hey, this is great if he just doesn’t speak. But I had my mentality on it, and I think what I was looking at is everybody talks, almost, in my opinion, too much. So how can I be different? I’m always thinking about that. How can I present myself on TV differently than everybody else to catch the attention of the fans in a different way? So I think it was striking in a way: this guy, he’s just got a cold stare, and he doesn’t speak. Then it became a challenge. Can I elicit emotion from the fans without saying a word? Can I make them feel a certain way? Can I get my emotion that I’m trying to get across to these fans without saying anything? That became kind of the goal, the mission.”
I love your in-depth knowledge of film. I love how it’s inspired so much of what you do. What’s the main film inspiration for your character?
“Initially, it was American Psycho, and at the time it was when the character idea was presented to me. I’d say it’s late 2013. I went to Oklahoma. I had a dark match with Kazarian in TNA, and before that match, I get pulled into an office by John Guboric, and he says, ‘I had this idea, but what do you want to do?’ I just started telling him what I wanted to do, and then he just said, ‘Well, we already have that. Can you do this?’ He said, ‘Have you seen American Psycho?’ My eyes just lit up. I get chills thinking about it now because I’m like,’ It’s one of my favorite movies. Whatever you need, I got it.’ He’s like, ‘You think you can do that?’ I was like, I’ll be doing my research. I don’t think I need to do too much because I know so much about the movie already. Then I started playing around with it, like Dexter, the TV show that was very popular at the time. Again, how can I be different? Everybody wrestles in wrestling gear. I wanted to be a heel. I wanted people to just be like, he has puke green pants on. He’s wearing a shirt while he wrestles. He’s wearing gloves. What’s wrong with this guy? Just those little things, and it got a lot of buzz. Twitter at the time was very like, this guy doesn’t wrestle in wrestling gear, is this or that, and I loved it. Anything that just made them hate me more, and the subtleness of the music, and it wasn’t anything loud or crazy here comes this good-looking kid who’s got a good physique, but wait, he’s covering it up. Just different.”
How did you get the name Dexter Lumis?
“So it was like five names and different combinations, and they sort of pick what they like out of the lot. I had Dexter on there, and I had Loomis on there, but I had it L O O M I S, like the doctor from Halloween. Then in Scream, there was the Loomis character as well, Billy Loomis. So it was kind of like if I could get away with some sort of spelling in that framework. I’d be really, really happy about that, and it was kind of my ode to the genre and the horror influence. So they really liked Dexter Loomis, and I was blown away. I was like, can they get that? Then they changed the spelling to L U M I S. But I was happy. It was great.”
You look different from the last time we saw you. Almost like you have shed that character:
“I think that was important to shed that character and do it right. There was a story there. I wanted to do it day one as soon as I got that call, because I was all game for this character initially and saw it through to the end. I was committed. I take a lot of pride in how I carry myself and get into a role, almost like a method actor in a way. I hear this a lot. I take acting lessons and from acting coaches who warn me of the dangers of method acting. I’ve always been intrigued by that, the actors that just get into it, like Heath Ledger. I’m not fond of the way that ended for him, but I was very intrigued by it. He had very detailed journals on everything that sort of reminded him of how to get this character across. He had like pictures of hyenas in his journal. I guess it’s the laugh.”
So, what was the pitch for you to become part of the Wyatt Six, and why did it need to be a different version of Dexter Lumis?
“Well, I knew something was coming that was going to be related to a tribute to Bray Wyatt, like a crew of misfits. Unwanted guys and girls that maybe fell by the wayside, and now they have something to prove, and now they’ve seen the light, and they’re gonna progress their careers because of the spirit of Bray Wyatt. I knew there was some sort of plan, and I felt very strongly that I was going to be a part of it. I got a call one day. I was just sitting at home. I was doing some yard work, I believe, and a gentleman named Rob Fee called me. He’s just like, ‘Hey, it’s happening. What can you do to dramatically change your appearance right now?’ I was like, I could shave my head, I could take the mustache off, and then it was just like, ‘All right, don’t do anything yet. Let me talk to Triple H.’ Then it just turned into, well, just grow your beard out. Keep growing your facial hair out. Grow your hair out.”
How long did you have?
“I can’t remember the exact time frame of that. I’d say I had a few months, and then it just kind of got down to we’re being brought into the WWE offices to have meetings about this stuff and show us the plan and this and that. I was like, I need to probably get this done soon. My hair is not long enough, so I pulled the trigger, got some extensions, but by the end, almost all the extensions were gone.”
How well did you know Bray, or had you spent time with him?
“I met Bray the first time at an FCW tryout in 2009. I think he maybe had had a couple matches at that point. Him and Wes Brisco. I remember just those boys just taking care of me when I was there. I was the only one at this tryout, and it’s just in that warehouse in Tampa. I remember just being done with practice one day, I’m just changing, taking my knee pads and boots off, and they pull up a chair right next to me and just start shooting sh*t with me, asking me questions, wanting to get to know me, and I start asking them questions, and we sort of developed a unique friendship right out the gate. I just knew I’d see these guys down the line, no matter what, we’d have our own successes. Obviously, Bray had the most success. But obviously our crew was based around him, so it’s just amazing to me to have seen that, look back on that very fondly. Over the years, he never forgot that. I mentioned to you in a private conversation how many times I’ve been an extra at WWE over the years, and any time I ran into him, just a big hug and how you doing? Even after I had done some TNA stuff, and I was gone from the company, I was coming in to do extra work at WWE. He would say to me, ‘Can you imagine what we could do together?’ And I’m just like, ‘Let’s do it.'”
How are you feeling now, a few months removed from being let go?
“I mean, I went through all the emotions, I guess you could say, but my mentality is like, okay, that’s maybe done for now, or forever. I can’t change what’s happened in the past. The right now is what I’m focused on, and the future. I don’t want to dwell on any negativity in that arena, but yeah, it’s disheartening. I was there for seven years, and I feel like I had a really unique, very fun career. I got to see the world. I was in Poland on my birthday this year, and I’m just sitting in the locker room. I had some downtime by myself, and I’m just like, this is pretty amazing. I feel like a real wrestler, like a real WWE Superstar. It’s those things that really hit you. You’re so far away from your family, but yet you still feel connected to this family.”
How does this release feel different from the one you had in 2022? And for people that don’t remember, you got released and brought back in like three months.
“Well, I think the first release was that there was a lot of shakeups going on in NXT. Triple H, who I considered my boss back then, he went down with a heart issue, and then it just seemed like a Vince McMahon overhaul happened in NXT. We went from black and gold to this splatter paint 2.0, very bright. John Laurinitis is down there every week and keeping tabs on talent now, and it’s like I’m not gonna feel the way I felt when I was an extra trying to get his attention every week. I’m a man now. I’ve had success at this place, and I’m gonna continue to have success at this place. Doesn’t matter if there’s a regime change. Doesn’t matter if that guy’s somewhat in charge now, I’m gonna do my thing. But I will say, I did feel like because I know how he operates. I know how that system before the NXT black and gold really came into play. I got hired at 35 years old back in 2009, and back in the FCW days, that was good luck. I think 30 was like the cutoff. So you’re always like, oh boy, I’m now past 30 years old, do I have an opportunity? Slowly but surely, you start seeing yes, there are opportunities because I think Triple H understood you don’t really get good at this, like, really, really, really good, until you understand it fully, and you might need 15-20, years in the business to understand that. I’ve kept my body in shape, and I train hard. I can do athletic stuff, and I’m 35 years old. So why don’t you hire me? I have a lot to offer this company. Now, I don’t know. I just feel like it’s different because TKO, the bottom line is the dollar.”
Does this release feel more final than that first one?
“It does feel a little more final. You always hear, you know, the door could always still be open. Never say never; those types of things. But I feel like now, as opposed to back then, I got to go out and prove myself a little bit more.”
Were you surprised when you got the call that not only were you being released, the entire group got released?
“I was a little surprised, just because I felt like I was doing the necessary things outside of just being booked and brought to TV every week. The joke that oh they just sit in catering and they collect a paycheck, that’s not me. I’m not there for that. I walked around the building all night, and I talked to important people, and picked veterans’ brains, and I was talking to Paul Heyman quite a bit, who I respect the hell out of, and I was getting some great advice from him, and one of the things he was saying was like, we need to make you a singles guy. This was very late, towards the end of the Wyatt Sicks run. I almost felt like something was brewing, but I just didn’t think like the whole group’s going to be released.”
How did you and Joe Gacy start to build the chemistry together and gel together? Because you guys had this great move set where you’re using him as a weapon and you’re doing double team stuff.
“Again, it’s like how do we be different? Use each other as weapons because we’re just sickos, you know. We love horror movies. We traveled up and down the road together, got to know each other really well over those years. But before that, I was aware of his indie run, and I think he was aware of me, and he’d been grinding, busting his ass for years. When I saw him in NXT, during the pandemic, I was like, he’s gonna be all right. Then when they gave him that character where he’s talking, and you get to see this personality shine, and I was just immediately enthralled with what he was doing. He’s got buzz, and that’s what you want. You start paying attention more to people, and you know they’re doing something different. I remember I was on the main roster. We were in Chicago, and I get there and I see the board, and it’s me and Gacy on main event, and we get to have a 10-minute main event match, first match on the card. I believe it’s the Allstate in Chicago, and that’s the arena with the wood.
We were very happy because we were on Main Event. We can just go out and just show what we do. Have a good match, but it’s also like we’re first, so the crowd’s on fire, so it’s even louder, and we had chemistry. I could feel it then, and I was like I feel like I’m going to see this guy down the road in some capacity, whether we work together like we’re doing tonight or as a team, and he’s very creative, and I think we just feed off each other’s creativity.”
It seems like you really found who your character was through TNA. You started to develop what we ended up later seeing in NXT and WWE.
“I believe so. I was doing that character even when I was released from TNA on the indie scene, and staying in touch with WWE with Canyon Ceman. Every six months he told me just message me and give me an update. What’s going on? So I knew there was interest, but it was gonna it was gonna take a while because he would always tell me just go live your life, check in with me every six months. If you love this, you’ll keep doing it, and if the job comes your way, great.”
So, how many times were you an extra in WWE before getting signed?
“Probably like 25 or 30 times.”
Were you a rosebud?
“I was a rosebud.”
Did any of them ever feel like you were getting closer to getting their attention or closer to getting signed?
“Well, the 2009 tryout at FCW, that was my very first time going to Raw in Jacksonville, and I just stayed when everybody had left. I waited for John Laurinitis to get off his phone because he’s always. That’s the old trick, whenever a talent’s coming to approach him and he doesn’t want to talk to him, he just puts his phone up. But I waited, and I saw my time to take advantage of the situation, and I talked to him, and he actually put me over and said I’ve noticed you waiting for the right time, it tells me a lot about your character that you waited till the end of the show and everybody’s gone, and you want this. I’d like to see what you can do. So he said, ‘I’m going to send you to FCW for a week and just get in that system and see how you do with them.'”
In NXT, the wedding with Indi Hartwell may be one of the most successful wrestling weddings ever. Most of them end disastrously.
“This one was not disastrous.”
Yeah, it was just like you said your first words in WWE.
“That’s it. ‘I do.’ That never happens. It could have gone differently. There were ideas that were thrown around that was going to go off way different, but I’m really happy with that 10-minute wedding segment. I still have a little script saved, so does Indi, because it was a very special thing for us. Because how many people can say they were in WWE and they had a wedding on TV that went off without a hitch, or just had a wedding in general? You got to be, I think, perceived a certain way to get that for yourself on a TV that they’re giving you that time on TV because it’s entertaining. We were entertaining enough to pull that off, and we had a connection with the fans, and we had a connection with each other. She would try and break me, man.”
She ever get you?
“Close, but she was like the only one that could almost do it because she was so ridiculous. I’d have to be in character, like this stoic [person]. If we’re out there with Johnny, for instance, and he’s having a match, and I’m just standing there watching my friend wrestle, she’d be on the apron just staring at me. I’m just like trying not to look over there. During rehearsals, I’d break, but I’m like all right, this is the time to get it out. When the red light’s on, and we’re live, pal, you ain’t gonna break me.”
So Road Dogg recently told this story that when he was working with you in NXT, he’d have you get guys in a headlock, and you’d lick them. He’d tell you to lick them.
“Yeah. So again, trying to stand out, trying to be different.”
And that worked with the character that you had.
“Yes, it did because people were unsure. What’s this guy all about? What’s going on here? I think my debut match on TV and in NXT was at Full Sail, and it was against Bronson Reed. I’m beating the hell out of him, and he’s sitting on his ass, and I just got him and grabbed his head, and then I just look at everybody and I lick his face, and the whole crowd was just like oh! Sometimes you pinpoint somebody in the crowd and you just watch them. Garner a reaction. I was taught to always go above and beyond, we can always pull it back. That was pulled back a little bit.”
I feel like everyone talks about how giving the Miz is. What was your experience with that feud with the Miz?
“Well, I think you and I were talking a little bit privately about how I just feel like my whole career I was kind of like hopeful that I’d work with the absolute best. I had feelings of like, wow, if I could work with John Cena, if I could work with Drew McIntyre, if I could work with Seth Rollins, if I could work with Brock Lesnar. I thought these were things that were possible. Obviously, those things didn’t happen, but I got to work with a Miz, and that son of a bitch has worked with everybody, and he is so good. I think people are realizing now, just how good he is and has always been.
I wish people could see some of the house shows that we’ve done because me and Miz had a series of house show runs where Abyss would come to us and be like, hey brother, you know that match before didn’t go long enough. Can you guys like go extra? Can you go an extra 10 minutes? Miz just looked at me like, oh yeah, we can do that. We had some 30-minute, 40-minute matches, and I just go out there and listen to him, and everything he called for me made me look good, and got crowd reactions, and I learned so much from him on just how to carry yourself out there.”
I don’t feel like you got the chance to show your full potential in the seven years you were in WWE. I feel like there’s so much more that you could do.
“I agree. I don’t know what else to say about that. I feel like I could go with anybody you put me in front of. As a matter of fact, I wish Brock Lesnar wasn’t retired because that has been my absolute epitome of the match that I want.”
Why is that the dream match?
“Who’s more intimidating in the wrestling business that’s still somewhat active? I know he just retired, but when that guy comes out to the ring, everybody’s just floored. There is a presence, and if he likes you, and you have a good match with him, and you show him that you can carry the ball. I feel like that’s the standard, you know. That’s the guy. You should want your career to be like his. To get the limited schedule, to get the money, to get the notoriety, to be a badass, to be legit, but also to be so giving. I’ve had conversations with Brock, and he might just be like oh, I don’t remember that kid. But I feel like I was right there, and I respect the hell out of him. I’m very happy that he’s had such a great career. Oba Femi, what a great story those two had. I’m not mad. I’m very happy for that situation and Brock’s retiring and everything, but you know, I always think, what if?”
Was there something that was supposed to happen, or were you just hopeful that it could have?
“Well, I mentioned Paul Heyman earlier, and it’s having conversations with him. I just didn’t beat around the bush. I just said, ‘Hey, I want to wrestle Brock Lesnar. How do we do that?’ And that’s when the conversation started shifting towards you need to be a singles guy. I wanted the Wyatt six to work, but how long can it last? You always kind of got to be mindful of that.”
Is there a difference between Dexter Lumis and Samuel Shaw?
“Well, I’m going out there on the independent scene currently, I just want that Dexter Lumis character. There’s going to be those nuances, but I want this character to progress. I think part of that is having this interview with you.”
What is Dexter Lumis grateful for?
“My wife, my son, and I’ve kept myself in shape.”
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